Hi
This is a question for Rocky as I know he is always on the ball with Microsoft Technologies. There is a lot of talk that Microsoft will not support Silverlight anymore. The rumor is that Silverlight 5 is the last version.
Is this really the truth?
I have spent a lot of time learning Silverlight together with CSLA Light. I have also spent hundreds of hours building software that we plan to sell as an off the shelf package with Silverlight. To hear that Silverlight is dying is not good news.
You can read Rockys opinions here in his recent blog post:
http://www.lhotka.net/weblog/Silverlight6DoesnrsquotMatter.aspx
What's truly exhausting as a "decision maker" is trying to explain through this subject when people are taking headlines and just assuming the sky is falling. Seriously - 1) read Rocky's blog posts, 2) wait until more information rather than conjecture comes out, 3) think about how you can position and leverage your existing investments as "#2" happens.
It's tiring. Yes, it sucks - strategy shifted, got it Muglia - what does this mean long term? *We don't know yet*. There's a good probability that Silverlight 5 is the last Silverlight. I've been thinking about how our online app could actually evolve to become our desktop app/Windows 8 tablet app via WinRT and needing to supplement it with an HTML5/js app, but it seems like we're simply missing too much information right now.
There's such a deficit of "decision-making information" out there that people need to take a step back, stop the "sky is falling" comments, and just maximize what they can do today and adjust to new information as it comes out.
Whether Silverlight 5 is the last version - if Rocky knows he probably can't answer - but like the above post, read the blog article. As far as "there is a lot of talk that Microsoft will not support Silverlight anymore" - there's a big difference between support and new versions - can you cite anything from Microsoft or even 2nd hand that discusses "support" in any specificity?
(I'm absolutely positive I'm not alone in my sentiment here - both of frustration with Microsoft, lack of information, and the ease of getting an article link thrown at you & having to deal with it).
Microsoft doesn't support Winforms for quiet some time, do they? I guess that VisualStudio and MS Office are still built with Winforms?! And neither looks like a zombie.
In our company there's no problem sticking on our WPF decision, because our customers expect of a modern UI (compared with Office apps), but they're not really interested about the technology it is built. And we reduce some risk for the "unknown", if we go for a mature technology.
I suppose the point is, what's your product most valuable for customers? Is it being on the forefront (i.e. UI components) or best support for a business (LOB apps)?
I suppose Companies feel similar, because they have to decide on which Office and e-mail products. I remember 10 years ago, when a big company spend millions for updating only their official office templates!
Microsoft doesn't support Winforms for quiet some time, do they? I guess that VisualStudio and MS Office are still built with Winforms?! And neither looks like a zombie.
This is where specific words become really important.
Windows Forms is absolutely a supported technology. I'm friends with the person who manages this technology.
But there's a difference between support and investment. Microsoft hasn't invested in Windows Forms for 6 years. The money and resources they've spent have been focused around bug fixes, and ensuring that Windows Forms continues to work in a consistent manner from VS 2005-2008-2010 and from .NET 2.0 to 3.0 to 3.5 to 4. That's support.
Windows Forms continues to be supported, and Microsoft has made no statements regarding not supporting Windows Forms. Based on comments made at //Build/ it is clear that Windows Forms applications will continue to run in the Windows 8 desktop mode. I assume (but don't know) that Visual Studio 2011 and .NET 4.5 will continue to support Windows Forms.
I clarify this, because I think it is important to understand the meaning of the words we use.
WPF is also supported. And WPF has had substantial investment up to this point.
Silverlight is also supported. And Silverlight has had substantial investment to this point.
Will WPF and/or Silverlight continue to be supported? Will they continue to be areas of investment? Those are the questions.
But ... and this is important ... when Microsoft stops investing, that doesn't mean they stop support. Arguably, Windows Forms developers have had the best 6 years of their lives - a stable, unchanging, supported platform for 6 years - that's amazing!
Suppose Microsoft did stop investing in WPF/SL. And suppose they maintain support. This could mean years of stable development against an unchanging platform. Talk about productivity!!
Or, suppose worst case - SL5 is the end. No more investment or "support" starting (let's say) in January 2012.
In that case, Microsoft would follow their 10 year sunset policy. SL5 would be maintained for 10 years. It would enjoy "support" for 10 years, ensuring it would continue to run and that you can call Microsoft for customer support.
That means in 2022 SL5 would go on paid support, where Microsoft may not do bug fixes, and may not ensure it runs on future OS releases, and if you call for any sort of support you must pay for the help. (this is where VB6 is now)
fwiw, in 2020 the world will look a lot different from today (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberpunk_2020), so I'm not sure we'll care all that much anyway. (yes, I really am a geek) :)
Back to being serious - keep in mind that most corporate long-term planning horizons are 3-4 years. Not 10, or even 5. So any potential "death of technology X" is outside the long-term planning scope of pretty much every company in the world.
The reason for this type of planning horizon? To avoid unnecessary and/or foolish decisions based on "what might be" in the future.
Rocky
Thanks for your detailed definition of terms.
A stable, mature technology is a good base for productivity. I guess most LOB apps use 3rd party frameworks like CSLA or view components. The important thing is, do these companies or communities invest for "old" technologies? For example if the customer ask for a ribbon but my choosen component provider will not invest for this in winforms, then I'm in a bad position.
Thus, I think it's OK if Microsoft only supports some technology, as long as the choosen 3rd parties still do a minimal investment, and of course continue to support.
I really hope Rocky is wrong about this. Developing desktop apps in html5 + javascript? What a huge step backwards. The worst part of my job is dealing with javascript, followed only by css. Limited controls will make things that much worse.
Hannes, if you're planning on being a success in the software business you really need to stay on top of what's happening with the technology you use and it's future directions. The time to be asking this question was at least 6 months ago when everyone else was also asking about it after Microsoft's missteps in their PR for windows 8 and HTML 5.
I am really sorry for not staying on top, it looks like I am going to be one big failure in the software business. It is a shame because I really liked software development.
I am really sorry for not staying on top, it looks like I am going to be one big failure in the software business. It is a shame because I really liked software development.
Hannes,
Go easy on yourself. There's alot of hysteria going on right now. Silverlight development is going to continue for awhile. In fact, the uptake by corporations in the past year is exactly why I question Microsoft's reported direction to begin with.
People were bemoaning their efforts to learn COBOL 25 years ago. I know several programmers that are STILL making a nice (really nice) living from it.
As Rocky has pointed in previous posts, true development skills are not tied to a language or platform. They are much more basic than that. Just be ready to adapt.
Ed
[As Rocky has pointed in previous posts, true development skills are not tied to a language or platform. They are much more basic than that. Just be ready to adapt.
Exactly, and the most important requirement to being ready to adapt is being informed or you will always be caught unawares and without any time to adapt.
I am really sorry for not staying on top, it looks like I am going to be one big failure in the software business. It is a shame because I really liked software development.
Hannes, rather than being defensive and flippant you might want to take my suggestion to heart.
I've been successfully publishing software for sale to the general public for almost 2 decades now and I've learned a lot of things in that time; of the many important tasks you need to do on a regular basis, one very important one is stay on top of the trends and directions in technology or you will surely be caught in a very bad position without warning.
A person who "likes software development" stays on top of trends in their industry, it's the professional thing to do.
Huh? No one can predict what is going to happen...customers don't care if you are using silverlight, WPF, Win Forms or even VB 6. All they care about is getting value.
Hi,
well don't panic about armageddon coming but also don't put lipstick on the pig!
What really happens? MSFT lifted the curtain about their future dev-environment plans a little bit, stating that their formerly announced "prince" named Silverlight will not be #1 in the future to come. Soon after they reveiled a little glimpse they felt back into silence again. Let's hope they don't rival Tommy (the older ones might remember) and it is only dumbness, not deaf and blind, to!
A company changing its strategy (again, let's hope they have one) most often results in headaches, no doubt. But what's really awfull bad ist the fact, that one has to master the art of reading between the lines! Let's take SL5. Today, 10 weeks(!) after publishing the RC there are only vague hints from officials when SL5 finally will be released. This PR-'strategy' (in fact it's a debacle, not a strategy)causes people to lose confidence or trust in MSFT.
OK, let' face realistic scenarios: Win8's acceptance esp. in corporate environments will slowly rise. Much slower than MSFT might expect. (But we'll surely see charts on conferences that show us how successful it'll be) What does that mean for dev's? Staying on their routed path and develop with WinForms/SL/WPF (or swap to Java or elsewhere) for at least 2-3 years. But how will that affect Win8's acceptance for LOB's? Outch! Seems as if MSFT will head into a 2-class situation: Consumers that use the new, cool stuff on even cooler devices and switch to desktop mode only if needed on one hand and companies that don't see much (if any) benefit (other than starting in Metro-mode and directly swap to desktop mode) in using Win8. And what with all those third party stuff?
Sorry, but please don't call SL on par with winforms as far as maturity is concerned! (Yes, SL doesn't look like a zombie, more than a teen with acne in some aspects!) I struggled the last 3 days with this bad SL-control they call a combobox! First it isn't a COMBObox at all, since it only works as a switchable listbox and doesn't allow typed-input and then it loses it's binding after datacontext has changed. Both well documented issues! And I'm not talking about an exotic control, seldom used in LOB's! OK, SL5's combobox should allow type ahead, but will it be released in time, when I should be releasing my app? Here the circle closed...
So, we will be developing apps in 5 and in 10 years from now. Surely not with the same tools and maybe not with tools from MSFT. Who knows. But I hope the next 1-3 years will see me developing with SL, which I hope will further mature.
Best wishes
Volker
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